September 1, 2005 Thursday

SHOW: NIGHTLINE (11:35 PM ET) - ABC
HEADLINE: NIGHTLINE INTRODUCTION
TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS

[Ted Koppel / Michael Brown Transcript from the video (Quicktime Real Player) by Tara Carreon, american-buddha.com]

TED KOPPEL: Earlier this evening, I spoke with Mike Brown, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.  He's coordinating disaster relief of a dozen Federal agencies and the American Red Cross. I asked about the discrepancy between FEMA's estimate of the number of people at the convention center and the mayor's estimate. One of you is wrong. It's either 5,000 or 15,000. Do you know?

MICHAEL BROWN, FEMA DIRECTOR: Actually, I have sent General Honore of the First Army to find out exactly the truth of what's down there, because we first learned of the convention center, we being the Federal government, today. And that he says the number's around 25,000.

KOPPEL: Okay. So, it sounds as though the mayor, who said 15 to 25,000, was closer in touch. I've heard you say during the course of this evening on a number of interviews, you just found out about it today. Don't you guys watch television? Don't you guys listen to the radio? Our reporters have been reporting about it for more than just today.

BROWN: We learned about it factually today that that's what existed. We've been so focused on doing rescue and life-saving missions and evacuating people from the Superdome ,that when we first learned about it, of course, my first gut instinction, instinct was, get somebody in there, get me truth on the ground, let me know, because if it's true, we've got to help those people.

KOPPEL: You've got chaos and anarchy breaking out in a number of different places in New Orleans. It would seem to me that the first thing you need to do is to get some good solid combat troops, like the 82nd Airborne, or the 101st in there. These are guys who are ready to move immediately. Instead, you're sending National Guardsmen in there and it's taking time. You don't have time.

BROWN: We don't have time, Ted, and General Honore and the First Army Division are here at my disposal, and we're absolutely doing that. We are ramping that up. There will soon be 30,000 National, armed National Guard troops in there to restore order, to take control of the facilities, and allow us to do our job.

KOPPEL: Mr. Brown, I, you know, forgive me, because I can't imagine what it must be like to have the burden on my shoulders that you have on yours right now. But here we are, essentially five days after the storm hit, and you're talking about what's going to happen in the next couple of days. You guys do war games. You have gamed out what is going to happen. In recent months, after a force three or a force four or a force five hurricane, to say, as the president did, well, we didn't know the dams were gonna break or we didn't know that the levees were going to, were going to break, is factually true, of course, you didn't know it. But you could have assumed it. You could have made preparations for what would happen in the event that. You knew it was going to  be a force five storm that was gonna hit in that region. Why didn't you?

BROWN: Ted, we had people pre-positioned to move in immediately.  And what happened, which is unusual in this disaster, there's two things. First and foremost, the disaster continued long after Hurricane Katrina had moved on. When the levees did break, we were already moving in, and then had to move back out. Then I think the other thing that really caught me by surprise was the fact that there were so many people -- and I'm not laying blame -- that either chose not to evacuate or could not evacuate. And as we began to do the evacuations from the Superdome, all of a sudden, literally thousands of other people started showing up in other places, and we were not prepared for that. We were, we were surprised by that. And so what we've done is we have ramped up the rescue efforts to get those people. There are helicopters flying tonight to take care of the people on bridges that we have found. There's additional supplies coming into the convention center and into the Superdome. And we have brought in every available resource to make sure we take care of those people.

And I just want to say to the American public that they do need to understand exactly how catastrophic this disaster is.  And they do need to know that we're gonna have every available resource to do everything that we can. We're gonna take care of these victims.  We're gonna make it right. We're gonna make certain -- we're gonna make absolutely certain -- that the devastation that has been reaped upon these people is taken care of, and that we get their lives back in order.

KOPPEL: Mr. Brown, some of these people are dead. They're beyond your help. Some of these people have died because they needed insulin, and they couldn't get it. Some of the people died because they were in hospitals, and they couldn't get the assistance that they needed. You say you were surprised by the fact that so many people didn't make it out. It's no surprise to anyone that you had at least 100,000 people in the City of New Orleans who are dirt poor. Who don't have cars.  Who don't have access to public transportation.  Who don't have any way of getting out of the city simply because somebody says, "you know, there's a force five storm coming, you ought to get out." If you didn't have the buses there to get them out, why should it be a surprise to you that they stayed?

BROWN: Well, Ted, you know, we're, I'm not going to sit here and second guess, why or when evacuation orders were given, or why or why not the city didn't have buses available. You know, that's just not the thing that we need to do right now.

KOPPEL: Not the city, not the city. I'm not asking you, I'm not asking you, Mr. Brown, why the city didn't have buses available. I'm asking you why you didn't have National Guards in there with trucks to get them out there. Why you didn't have people with flatbed trailers, if that's what you needed. Why you didn't, you know, simply get Greyhound buses from as many surrounding states as you could lay your hands on to get those people out of there?  Why you haven't done it to this day?

BROWN: Ted, we're doing all of that. We're moving all of those things in there.  And what people need to understand is, that when you're doing these life-saving and life-sustaining kind of operations, then if I move rescue workers into harm's way, and they become victims themselves, it just makes the problem doubly worse. So, yes, we move in when it's safe to move in. We move in when we can do that. We work closely with the state government. The Federal government did not come in here and just tell this governor how or what to do. We came in here and said what do you want us to do, we will help you. We are now taking it upon ourselves to do things that we think need to be done, and we will continue to do that, because that's our job.

KOPPEL: Your state counterpart, Terry Ebbert, the head of Emergency Operations in Louisiana says, "This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace. FEMA," he said, "has been there three days, yet there is no command and control. We send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the City of New Orleans."

BROWN: Ted, you know, with all due respect to him, we have convoys.  We're feeding people. The people in the convention center are being fed.  The people on the bridges ...

KOPPEL: With all due respect, sir, the people, the people in the convention center are not being fed. Our reporters ...

BROWN: I misspoke, the people in the people in the Superdome. I'm sorry, you're absolutely correct. We're getting the supplies to the convention center now. But the people in the Superdome have been being fed.  That supply chain has been working, and that has been moving along, and those evacuations have been continuous.

KOPPEL: But the people of New Orleans were told to go to the convention center. They went there in the belief that supplies would be waiting for them when they got there.

BROWN: Well, I don't know who made that promise to them, Ted, but our job was to get those supplies in there once we realized that the Federal government was gonna be asked to come in and do that.  And that's exactly what we did.

KOPPEL: All right, Mr. Brown, again, you know, forgive me for, for beating up on you there, but you're the only guy from the Federal government these days who's coming out to take your medicine. So I thank you for doing that, and I really hope you're gonna be able to help those people because you still have, trust me, you have got thousands of people at the convention center tonight who need your help desperately.

BROWN: Ted, I agree with you. and I got to tell you, in all sincerity, my heart goes out to those people.  And I am determined, absolutely determined, to speed this thing up, make this thing work, and get the aid to those people. This is a catastrophic disaster for this country.

KOPPEL: Michael Brown, thanks very much indeed.

When we come back, a report from the Houston Astrodome, where thousands of New Orleans refugees are beginning to arrive.

commercial break

KOPPEL: A warning to our affiliates that our broadcast will be running a little long this evening. As we showed you earlier in the program, many thousands of the people who would like to leave New Orleans for the refugee city being constructed in Houston's Astrodome, have not yet found a bus to take them there. My "Nightline" colleague Michel Martin is in Houston this evening where the first refugees have begun to arrive.

MICHEL MARTIN, ABC NEWS: First it was just a bus or two, arriving at half past midnight. Many looked tired, and others looked anxious.  But a few managed to smile and wave. And as day broke, more buses, waves of them, filled with men, women and children, who first fled Katrina and in the chaos she left behind.

TITICHIA WRIGHT, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: We came in a stolen truck. We had to steal a truck and ride out here.

MARTIN: Some, like Titichia Wright, had harrowing stories of escape. Her boyfriend pushed her and their baby on an air mattress to get them to safety.

WRIGHT: For four days we was in an abandoned apartment. We had to kick in doors for food, you know, for water.

REPORTER, MALE: And what made you decide to leave finally?

WRIGHT: When they said it was going to break the floodgates and it was gonna flood the city. I had no choice but to fight for survival. I'm, I'm not ready to die. I'm not ready to die.

MARTIN: Other people's journeys were less dramatic, but equally heart-rending. Shawn DuBose, his girlfriend and two children escaped in two separate boats. He made his way here to the Astrodome, hoping to find them. So far to no avail.

SHAWN DUBOSE, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: This my first shower in five days. So, I feel kind of good right now for my, as far as my hygiene, you know, but for me, mentally stressing about how my family is hurting me right now.

ROBERT LEWIS, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: As the water rose, there were like bodies floating past my front door, you know? Bodies floating past my front door. I've never seen anything like this. Anyway, we had to get the children out. So, me and the men that were, that were there, we put them on our shoulders. We hupped through five, six feet of water. There was all types of things swimming in the water. And I hate to relive this. It was, we got to the top, and when we got the children over, we got to the top of the levee because we were counting on someone to pick us up. The truck never came back, we had to walk two miles to the helicopter pickup. And it was, it was, it was dark. There were electrical poles, every road's impassable, there  were poles laying down everywhere. We couldn't get out; no one could get in. We couldn't contact, no -dead. Nothing. We were like on an island. It was no light whatsoever. We did the best we could. You can call it Biblical, call it apocalyptic, whatever you want to do. Take your pick.  It's nothing short of that. I mean, I, I, I can't put it any plainer than that. It was ...

MARTIN: Houston mayor Bill White said his city should prepare for a long relationship with the evacuees.

MAYOR BILL WHITE, HOUSTON, TEXAS: Our goal should be to have them living in places that, where they can live with some dignity and privacy and seek employment and so that they are not just sitting around watching TV all day thinking what's gonna happen to them next.

MARTIN: All over the city churches and community groups have opened their facilities to the evacuees. This Catholic Church turned its cafeteria into a shelter on Monday. By Wednesday it was at capacity, but shelter officials couldn't bring themselves to turn anybody away, so last night, 400 people slept here. And they're still coming.

MARTIN: Everyone had a story. The five members of the Poe family lost three houses among them.

FEMALE, POE FAMILY MEMBER: And we left everything.

MARTIN: Everything?

FEMALE: Everything except two changing of clothes.

MARTIN: Here immediate needs for food, water and shelter are met, so there was time to contemplate the reality that life as they knew it is gone.

HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: It's not gonna come together like it was. Some places are gonna be lost, but I believe that we can come together.

HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: Whatever God's now do is well done. I'm very satisfied.

MARTIN: Do you, do you feel as ...

HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: But, even though, if I lost everything I'm still satisfied.

SENECA THORNTON, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: I got my cry out, I did my breakdown, I did my PTSD syndrome part of it. And it's not that I'm over it. It's just that reality has set in.

MARTIN: Like others here, Seneca Thornton said she is relying on faith.

SENECA THORNTON: It's 12, 15 of us now, and we just realizing we have nothing. Nothing at all. But we are blessed.

MARTIN: One thing no one has enough of here is information. All afternoon, people came up to us asking for help locating lost relatives.

FEMALE: I can't get in touch with my daughter. I'm praying God that she's safe.

ETHEL LEWIS, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: If you can hear from some of my family, could you give them this number ...

MARTIN: Okay.

ETHEL LEWIS: ... and tell them to call, I'm in this place.

MARTIN: Ethel Lewis is searching for her husband, Floriston. (PH)

LEWIS: He can't use his left hand. He done had about three strokes ...

MARTIN: He's had, had three strokes.

LEWIS: ... and I know he must be frustrated if, I hope he met people that know him.

MARTIN: Sylvia Angeletta (PH) is looking for her brother, Willie Brown.

SYLVIA ANGELETTA, HURRICANE KATRINA SURVIVOR: And I haven't seen my brother, and that's all I have, that's the only brother. We just lost our mother.

MARTIN: And Shawn DuBose is hoping his big sister Denise will soon come to his rescue.

SHAWN DUBOSE: If she's watching TV right now, Denise, this is your little brother, come get me, baby.

MARTIN: And Ted, at the end of the first day of the exodus from the Superdome to the Astrodome, about 4,000 people are inside, which means about 20,000 are yet to come.

TED KOPPEL: There is obviously a big difference between sitting there for three hours and watching a football game and, you know, spending the next few days or even few weeks there. How many people do they think they can accommodate over the long haul?

MARTIN: They think they can accommodate about 25 to 30,000 inside. And they have cots, they have places to feed them. I mean, remember, this was a fully functioning sports arena, even though there are no sports, sporting events being held there now. They do have kitchens, and they do have showers.

KOPPEL: Now, you were telling me when we were chatting before, that the hospitality of Houston actually extends way beyond what the city fathers are doing here at the, at the Astrodome.

MARTIN: It does. The generosity has been quite remarkable. For example, we visited a shelter a couple of miles from here earlier in the day, and the people who were running the shelter, which is in a Catholic Church cafeteria, said that people have been coming by all day saying what do you need? And when people tell them they have been leaving and coming right back with whatever people say they needed. You know, fans, for example for people who are  housed very closely together. You know, boxes so that they can take away donated clothing. Pretty much whatever people asked for, somebody has been trying to provide here. In fact, earlier, when we were preparing this report, one lady came by our work space with her two sons, and asked for directions to a shelter, because she and her neighbors were prepared to take people home with them to provide them shelter in their houses.

KOPPEL: Michel -- we've only got about 20 seconds left -- any theories as to, as to why folks are being so nice?

MARTIN: Yes, in fact they told us. They said many people here have fresh memories of Hurricane Allison, which was in 2001. Many of these people were out of their homes for months. They remember what it's like to be displaced, to be depressed, to be without hope.  And many people said that when they heard these people were coming, the first thing they did was clear their calendars and figure out how they can help.

KOPPEL: Nice. Michel Martin, thanks very much indeed. (Off Camera) In addition to the New Orleans' refugees pouring into Houston, two other Texas cities, San Antonio and Dallas, have each agreed to host an additional 25,000 refugees from Louisiana. With 75,000 refugees coming to his state, Texas Governor Rick Perry today declared an emergency disaster for the state, freeing up money to help the storm victims. When we come back, the monumental task facing city, state and Federal engineers, how to get New Orleans back on its feet.

commercial break

KOPPEL: President Bush gave an exclusive interview today to Diane Sawyer on "Good Morning America." She asked if he was satisfied with the pace at which aid was being distributed.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, UNITED STATES: I understand the anxiety of people on the ground. I can, I just can't imagine what it's like to be waving a sign that says, "come and get me now." So, there's, there, there is frustration. But I want people to know there's a lot of help coming. I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm, but these levees got breached. And as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded.  And now we're having to deal with it and will.

KOPPEL: The plugging of the levees is now under way. Cameraman J.T. Alpaugh, who's given us some of the most extraordinary footage of New Orleans, got another bird's eye view of the operation this afternoon.

KOPPEL: I gather that you got some really good video of, of the, I, I don't know who it was. Was it the Army, the Air Force? Who's, who's trying to, who is trying to dump sand and, and things into the levee to repair the breach?

J.T. ALPAUGH, HELINET CAMERAMAN: Well, we believe it was the Air National Guard using their Blackhawk helicopters, and we have heard news of this for the past few days, that they were  planning on doing this.  And everybody was awaiting this actually to play out. So what they were doing today is, they actually started the operation by sling loading these very large sandbags, and then maneuvering them, the helicopters, directly over the levee break, and dropping them methodically and strategically into place to start plugging up that levee hole.

KOPPEL: Is there is any way of telling from the air, well, I mean, I suppose you could you tell whether water is still getting through. Can you?

J.T. ALPAUGH: Oh, you can definitely see the flow still running through that break in the levee. The Pontchartrain Lake is draining still heavily into the area, although we have seen some of the water receding in certain areas, that, that flow is definitely either leveled out, or continuing to flow. So, it'd be very interesting to see the progression of how the sandbags start to pile up to maybe  slow the flow of this water.

KOPPEL: J.T. Alpaugh. Making New Orleans habitable again will be a daunting task. And as John Donovan reports, the first step is repairing the levees, but it's only the first step.

JOHN DONOVAN, ABC NEWS: (Voice Over) Only then can the bailing out begin. New Orleans slowly pumped dry, the water in the city sent back once more to the lake that has made the flood. Then it will be revealed, the damage that the water is doing even now beneath the surface. But people who have witnessed these things before, though, never on this scale, they have some idea of what we'll see and what needs to happen.

JERRY HAUER, FORMER EMERGENCY MANAGER: Having worked many floods, I, I look at this one and the, the, the tasks ahead are going to be so labor-intensive, and it requires so many things going on at once.

DONOVAN: Begin with just the houses, the bedrock of family life. But a week in water like this can be the equivalent of sitting in a cardboard box in a bathtub full of water. Living room walls made of dry wall can simply crumble in.  Floorboards warp.  Joists begin to rot out. A house sitting in water like this essentially caves in on itself. But each of those houses, even the ones that may be total write-offs, when the water goes down, they will have to be searched for survivors and for the dead. And then there's the contamination. You can see some of the water is already mixing with chemicals and human waste backing up from the sewer system. When the water recedes, there will be a thick layer of gunk everywhere that may literally need to be scraped off the surface.

HAUER: It's got to be assessed to see what kind of hazards are part of it, and whether or not they need to come in with front-end loaders, and just take up all the dirt, and send it to a hazardous materials site, or whether it's acceptable to just dump somewhere.

DONVAN: And then there is just the debris. Look farther along the coast at the scene in Biloxi, Mississippi, where the water came and went. Stuff everywhere. In New Orleans, add the remains of all of the buildings they'll have to demolish, where is there room to cart all that wreckage off to?

HAUER: 1990 was the Petersburg flooding and tornado outbreak. The houses were ripped down, and all of the debris was trucked to an old coalmine, and dumped in the coalmine, and it was left there.

DONVAN: But there is no coalmine big enough to swallow what lies beneath the lake that is now New Orleans. Here it is, a view of a city that as of now, and for some time into the future, is simply uninhabitable. I'm John Donovan for "Nightline."

KOPPEL: A couple of late developments tonight. Senate leaders flew back to Washington to pass a $10 billion aid package for hurricane disaster relief. The House is expected to pass the bill tomorrow. And an unusual turn of events, the United Nations has offered disaster assistance to the United States. The offer was not simply for aid, but also for expertise in dealing with disasters. As yet, there has been no US government response. That's our report for tonight. I'm Ted Koppel in Washington. For all of us here at ABC News, good night.