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DEPOSITION OF RICHARD K. HOLBO

AMERICAN BUDDHA STRIKES ITS OWN BLOW FOR INTERNET FREE SPEECH IN KATHLEEN PARKER DUST-UP (AMERICAN BUDDHA VS. CITY OF ASHLAND, OREGON)

See PDF here

                          IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

                                  DISTRICT OF OREGON

                                       ---o0o---



             AMERICAN BUDDHA, an Oregon
             Nonprofit corporation,

                            Plaintiff,

             vs.                                  NO. 06-CV-3054-PA

             THE CITY OF ASHLAND and THE
             WASHINGTON POST COMPANY,

                            Defendants.

             _________________________________/



                                       ---o0o---

                            DEPOSITION OF RICHARD K. HOLBO

                               FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2006

                                      11:03 A.M.

                                       ---o0o---

                  LAURA L. SMITH, RPR, OR CSR #97-0340, CA CSR #2731


                        Certified Court and Deposition Reporter
                            2305-C Ashland Street, PMB 228
                                 Ashland, Oregon 97520

                                    (541) 488-4677



                                                                         2


         1                            APPEARANCES

         2

         3   For the Plaintiff:

         4
             BY:  CHARLES CARREON, Attorney at Law
         5   423 Gateway Drive, #64
             Pacifica, California 94044
         6   650-735-5277

         7

         8   For the Defendant City of Ashland:

         9   HOFFMAN HART WAGNER, LLP
             BY:  KAREN O'KASEY, Attorney at Law
        10   1000 S.W. Broadway, 20th Floor
             Portland, Oregon 97205-3070
        11   503-595-1242

        12

        13   For the Defendant (via telephone):  The Washington
               Post Company:
        14
             WILLIAMS & CONNOLLY
        15   BY:  KEVIN HARDY, Attorney at Law
             725 12th Street, N.W.
        16   Washington, D.C., 20005
             202-434-5257
        17

        18
             Also present:       Mrs. Tara Carreon
        19                       Mr. Michael W. Franell,
                                   Ashland City Attorney

        20

        21                             ---o0o---

        22

        23

        24

        25


                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1                             I N D E X

         2                                                          Page

         3   Examination by Mr. Carreon                               4

         4   Examination by Mr. Hardy                                60

         5   Reporter's Certificate                                  61

         6

         7

         8                             EXHIBITS

         9
                                   (Nothing marked.)
        10

        11

        12

        13                             ---o0o---

        14

        15

        16

        17

        18

        19

        20

        21

        22

        23

        24

        25



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1         BE IT REMEMBERED, that on FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2006,

         2    commencing at the hour of 11:03 A.M., at the office of the

         3      City of Ashland Legal Department, 20 East Main Street,

         4      Ashland, Oregon, before me, LAURA L. SMITH, a Certified

         5      Shorthand Reporter in and for the states of Oregon and

         6              California, there personally appeared:

         7                         RICHARD K. HOLBO,

         8       a witness in the above-entitled action, called by the

         9    plaintiff, who, being by me first duly sworn, was examined

        10                     and testified as follows:

        11                    EXAMINATION BY MR. CARREON

        12   Q        Have you been deposed before, Mr. Holbo?

        13   A        No.

        14   Q        Okay.  So you have been to court before --

        15   A        Yes.

        16   Q        -- testified under oath?

        17   A        Yes.

        18   Q        Okay, same thing.

        19            On August 2, 2006, you got an e-mail from Kathleen

        20   Parker; correct?

        21   A        I don't believe so.

        22   Q        August 1.

        23   A        Yes.

        24   Q        Okay.  Is this it here, Exhibit 2?

        25   A        Yes.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q        All right.  And this says that, "A web site

         2            registered through godaddy.com has doctored

         3            my column mugshot to create a pornographic

         4            image.  It is both obscene and a copyright

         5            infringement."

         6            Did you ever see this image?

         7   A        Yes.

         8   Q        All right.  And did you see that it had been

         9   doctored?

        10   A        That would be an opinion.

        11   Q        Did you see anything that indicated to you that

        12   Ms. Parker was telling you something true with regard to the

        13   doctoring?

        14            In other words, did she show you the first image

        15   that was doctored, like an image of her?

        16   A        I looked on the Internet and found the picture of

        17   her.

        18   Q        Okay.  You found an independent picture of Kathleen

        19   Parker?

        20   A        (Witness nods head.)

        21   Q        Correct?

        22   A        Uh-huh.

        23   Q        Is that a yes?  They can't hear you --

        24   A        Yes.

        25   Q        -- on the other side of those keys, they don't hear



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                         6


         1   a thing.

         2           So how did you find that picture of Kathleen Parker?

         3   A        I used Google.

         4   Q        Google Search?

         5   A        Yes.

         6   Q        Did you see there on Google image search the

         7   allegedly doctored photo?

         8   A        Yes.

         9   Q        Is that where she showed you the doctored photo?

        10   A        She did not show me anything.

        11   Q        Did she send you a link to anywhere?

        12   A        She did not.

        13   Q        Did you in any way independently verify that

        14   American-Buddha.com was in fact hosting the image she

        15   claimed it was hosting?

        16   A        Yes.

        17   Q        How did you determine that?

        18   A        By -- well, not American Buddha; I used our tools

        19   to correlate the MAC address of a modem registered to

        20   InfoStructure to an IP address.

        21   Q        Okay.  And so how did you do that?

        22   A        On our router, it keeps tables of Mac address to IP

        23   address.

        24   Q        So you started with -- did you ever go to the

        25   America Buddha web site?



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   A        Yes.

         2   Q        Did you join as a member?

         3   A        No.

         4   Q        How did you get in?

         5   A        The image directory is not protected.

         6   Q        So you hacked the American-Buddha.com web site?

         7   A        Nope.

         8   Q        Did you notice that it is a membership-only web

         9   site?

        10   A        The front page is.

        11   Q        Okay.  And did you read the membership application?

        12   A        No.

        13   Q        Is it your habit to enter into web sites that have

        14   membership requirements and just enter into them?

        15           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

        16           You can answer.

        17   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  For example, have you ever gone

        18   into the web site for, say, the Washington Post?

        19   A        No.

        20   Q        And have you ever searched to see if you could

        21   maybe get around their membership page?

        22   A        No.

        23   Q        And why did you do it with respect to

        24   American-Buddha.com?

        25           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form.  He has already



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                         8


         1   testified he didn't, and, Counsel, the lawsuit is not

         2   brought against Mr. Holbo, and this line of questioning has

         3   nothing to do with the allegations in the complaint.

         4           So if you can give me some basis for explaining why

         5   it's relevant and likely admissible at trial before Judge

         6   Panner, I'll certainly entertain allowing you to continue

         7   this line of questioning.  If you cannot do that, then I

         8   won't.

         9           MR. CARREON:  I have no idea what line you are

        10   talking about.

        11   Q        Why did you not go through the American-Buddha.com

        12   sign-up process in order to see the image that you had been

        13   told was there?

        14           MS. O'KASEY:  I object and instruct you not to

        15   answer.

        16            MR. CARREON:  Are you going to follow your

        17   counsel's instruction?

        18            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

        19           MR. CARREON:  Then we can terminate this deposition

        20   now and call Judge Panner, if possible.

        21           MS. O'KASEY:  Sure; I have his number.

        22           (Recess in proceedings at 11:08 a.m.)

        23           (Conversation held off the record.)

        24                             ---o0o---

        25   - - - - -



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q       BY MR. CARREON:  Mr. Holbo, are we in agreement that

         2   everything you did with respect to American-Buddha.com was

         3   done in the course and scope of your employment?

         4           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

         5            You can answer.

         6            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

         7   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  You did not at any time act on

         8   your own behalf, fishing on your own hook, as we might say?

         9   A        No.

        10   Q        You bear no individual animus to

        11   American-Buddha.com; correct?

        12   A        I bear no animus.

        13   Q        The activities you performed, what are -- which you

        14   believe were proper -- were all performed in the service of

        15   this policy right here, shown as Exhibit 1; correct?

        16           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

        17           You can answer.

        18           THE WITNESS:  Yes.

        19   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  And if you are found to have

        20   violated any laws whatsoever in the course of performing

        21   this, you would -- if, for example, if you were sued as a

        22   defendant, you would turn to the City of Ashland to request

        23   that they defend you; correct?

        24           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

        25   Also, it calls for a legal conclusion.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        10


         1   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  And there is definitely -- I mean,

         2   this is, like, theoretical, but if you were sued because of

         3   what happened on August 1 and August 2, would you turn to

         4   the city and say, well, please defend me?

         5           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

         6   It calls for a legal conclusion as well.

         7           If you can answer, answer.  If you don't know the

         8   answer, tell him that.

         9           THE WITNESS:  I do not know.

        10   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  You do not know what you would do

        11   if you were sued?

        12   A        That is correct.

        13   Q        Okay.  Well, why is that?

        14           MS. O'KASEY:  I object and instruct you not to

        15   answer.

        16           Counsel, this has nothing to do with this lawsuit.

        17           MR. CARREON:  It has everything to do with it,

        18   Counsel, but don't use up my transcript.  If you want to

        19   chatter with me, let's go off the record and we can chatter

        20   extensively.

        21           MS. O'KASEY:  I would like my objection on the

        22   record, that's all.  I'm entitled to it.

        23           MR. CARREON:  Let's try to keep them brief; they are

        24   expensive to me.

        25           MS. O'KASEY:  You chose to bring the lawsuit,



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        11


         1   Counsel, not the city of Ashland, so the expenses related to

         2   that are a choice that you --

         3           MR. CARREON:  I'm going to bill you for every

         4   frivolous word; okay?

         5           MS. O'KASEY:  If you would like to ask a question

         6   relevant to the lawsuit, that would be good.

         7           MR. CARREON:  And I'm going to bill you for that

         8   because that was definitely frivolous.

         9   Q        So how many phone calls did you have with Kathleen

        10   Parker?

        11   A        I recall two.

        12   Q        And how long were those phone calls?

        13   A        A few minutes.

        14   Q        And what did she tell you?

        15   A        Um, the first phone call was transferred to me from

        16   our utilities department to express the complaint and the

        17   second phone call was to give her the status.

        18   Q        And so they forwarded the call to you -- I mean,

        19   the electric department forwarded the call?

        20   A        Someone did, I don't recall.

        21   Q        And then you were talking with her?

        22   A        (Witness nods head.)

        23   Q        And then she said?

        24   A        Um, she said basically the same thing that is in

        25   the e-mail.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        12


         1   Q        She said?

         2   A        That there was a site that was copyright-infringing

         3   a picture of hers.

         4   Q        And what else?

         5   A        That's all I recall of the conversation.

         6   Q        Absolutely everything?

         7   A        That's all I recall of the conversation.

         8   Q        Okay.  Well, let's go ahead and take a look at

         9   Exhibit 2 and see if that refreshes your recollection and

        10   you might have anything to add to your recollection of her

        11   phone call.

        12            Go ahead, read it.  That's what we do when we

        13   refresh our recollection.  We actually read the document

        14   that is put in front of us, we think about it, we allow our

        15   recollection to be refreshed, and then we say if it did, and

        16   we say what we remembered, because it happens.  So go ahead.

        17   A        Okay.  This is basically what she said to me on the

        18   phone.

        19   Q        All righty.  So has your recollection been

        20   refreshed in any way such that you would add to your answer?

        21   Because there are things in here that you didn't tell me she

        22   told you over the phone.

        23            So I'd like you to add those to your answer:  What

        24   did she tell you over the phone?

        25   A        That there was a site that had stolen her picture,



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        13


         1   put it on the Internet, that her children had come home and

         2   she had seen -- she had had to look at it and explain to

         3   them what was going on.

         4   Q        And you told her?

         5   A        To send me an e-mail -- or send an e-mail at

         6   abuse@ashlandfiber.net and that we would see what we could

         7   do.

         8   Q        See what we could do.  What did you tell her you

         9   could do?

        10   A        I said I would contact the ISP in question.

        11   Q        Uh-huh.  And did you assure her that -- excuse me.

        12            At that moment, did you see the image?

        13   A        No.

        14   Q        When did you first see the image?

        15   A        After she sent me the e-mail.

        16   Q        And how did you find it?

        17   A        I looked on Google.

        18   Q        You looked on Google, and Google is a web site that

        19   is not hosted by Ashland Fiber Net; correct?

        20   A        That is correct.

        21   Q        You couldn't affect the image on Google; could you?

        22   A        No.

        23   Q        Because that's on Google, okay.  So why were you

        24   telling her that you would do something about an image that

        25   you found on Google?



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        14


         1           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

         2           You can answer.

         3           THE WITNESS:  I followed a link from Google.

         4   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  But she was complaining about the

         5   image on Google; right?

         6   A        No.

         7   Q        No, she wasn't, so what image was she complaining

         8   about?

         9   A        An image that is hosted on American Buddha.

        10   Q        But she didn't send you a link to that image?

        11   Instead, you went to the one on Google.

        12            Why did you go to the one on Google?

        13   A        Because I forgot how to spell Buddha.

        14   Q        Well, didn't you just read the e-mail she sent you

        15   which spells it out?

        16   A        I did.

        17   Q        And you weren't able to copy it from the e-mail?

        18   A        (Witness shrugs shoulders.)

        19   Q        It says American-Buddha.com.  All we need to add is

        20   the www in front and we are rolling; right?

        21   A        Yup.

        22   Q        But your forgetfulness -- what has that got to do

        23   with forgetting?  She sent it to you; how many times do you

        24   need to get an e-mail before you can read it?

        25           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question,



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        15


         1   argumentative.

         2           You can answer.

         3           THE WITNESS:  I find it easy to use Google to look

         4   things up.

         5   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  And so what did you find there at

         6   Google?

         7            You found an image that was hosted at Google;

         8   correct?

         9   A        No.

        10   Q        Oh, what did you find there?

        11   A        A link to a web site.

        12   Q        You found, in other words, the URL of a photograph

        13   that has been hosted at Google?

        14   A        No.

        15   Q        What did you find?

        16   A        The link to American Buddha.

        17   Q        Okay.  And then what did you do with that link?

        18   A        I clicked on it.

        19   Q        And what happened?

        20   A        The picture came up.

        21   Q        You mean the join page came up?

        22   A        No.

        23   Q        When you clicked on the image, what web site URL

        24   was then displayed in the browser address?

        25   A        The image on American Buddha.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q        Okay.  When you clicked on that image, it is your

         2   contention that it took you directly to that image and not

         3   to a page that says we have your page here, join now?

         4   A        Correct.

         5   Q        Okay.  And it's your claim that that did not

         6   involve any getting around the security protection at

         7   American-Buddha.com that keeps it a web site?  You just went

         8   straight in there?

         9   A        I don't claim anything.  I clicked on a link in

        10   Google.

        11   Q        And it took you straight into American Buddha

        12   without you having to join?

        13   A        Yes.

        14   Q        So when you said previously the image files are not

        15   protected but you did know that it was a membership web

        16   site, what did you mean there by the image files weren't

        17   protected?

        18   A        This is a technical --

        19   Q        That's all right, it's a technical case.  Lay it on

        20   us.

        21   A        It would appear that when Google spiders your web

        22   site, um, that the directory in which the images are stored

        23   is accessible directly.

        24   Q        And you are referring to American-Buddha.com?

        25   A        I am referring to American-Buddha.com.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q        We are there.  Okay.  So you talked to Kathleen

         2   Parker.  Did she at any time threaten consequences --

         3   A        No.

         4   Q        -- against the City of Ashland --

         5   A        No.

         6   Q        Okay.  -- in her first conversation or her second

         7   conversation?

         8   A        Not that I recall.

         9   Q        Okay.  Did she represent herself as being from the

        10   Washington Post?

        11   A        No.

        12   Q        So when she sent the e-mail, she said I am Kathleen

        13   Parker, a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post

        14   writers group, was that the first time you had heard the

        15   Washington Post name?

        16   A        No, she mentioned it on the telephone.

        17   Q        Okay.  Did that mean anything to you?

        18   A        No.

        19           MR. HARDY:  I objection to form.

        20   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  Did she appear to be representing

        21   herself as acting on behalf of the Washington Post to you?

        22   A        No.

        23   Q        Is it your understanding that the Ashland Fiber Net

        24   will take down material that is pornographic that is being

        25   displayed through the Ashland Fiber Net?



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

         2           You can answer.

         3           THE WITNESS:  No.

         4   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  Is it your understanding that it

         5   will turn off web sites that are alleged to be obscene by

         6   some?

         7   A        No.

         8   Q        Is it your understanding that the Ashland Fiber Net

         9   will cut off access to a web site that has

        10   copyright-infringing material?

        11   A        Yes.

        12   Q        What do you know about copyright infringement?

        13   A        Very little.

        14   Q        Do you know who owns the copyright on a photograph

        15   of, let's say, me?

        16   A        I have no idea.

        17   Q        Do you have any idea whether it is the person

        18   photographed or the person that took the photograph?

        19   A        Nope.

        20   Q        And you clearly were not contacted by a

        21   photographer?

        22           MS. O'KASEY:  In connection with this picture?

        23           MR. CARREON:  Correct, Counsel.  Thank you, Counsel.

        24           THE WITNESS:  I don't know.

        25   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  Ms. Harris (sic) claimed to have



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        19


         1   been the subject of a photograph that had been doctored?

         2           MR. HARDY:  Objection to form.

         3           THE WITNESS:  Yes.

         4   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  She did not claim to be the

         5   photographer whose work had been doctored; did she?

         6   A        She did not.

         7   Q        Okay.  However, you did not worry about these

         8   matters at length because you have lawyers to help you;

         9   correct?

        10           MS. O'KASEY:  I object and instruct you not to

        11   answer if it requires an answer based on the attorney-client

        12   privilege.

        13           MR. CARREON:  It sure doesn't.

        14   Q        You don't worry about it because you have lawyers

        15   to rely on as reflected in Exhibit 5, and you forwarded her

        16   e-mail to legal counsel; correct?

        17           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question

        18   and instruct you not to answer it to the extent it calls you

        19   to reveal any discussions between you and the city attorney.

        20           MR. CARREON:  It clearly does not.

        21           MS. O'KASEY:  If it doesn't, you can answer based on

        22   what you know outside of any conversations you had with the

        23   city attorney.

        24           THE WITNESS:  That particular thought process did

        25   not enter my mind.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  You didn't think about whether you

         2   knew anything about copyright infringement or not is what

         3   you are saying?

         4            You didn't think about it because it's not your job

         5   to determine whether something is a copyright infringement

         6   or not; right?

         7   A        It is not my job to determine whether something is

         8   copyright infringement or not.

         9   Q        All right.  Whose job is it?

        10           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

        11           If you know, you can answer, if it's anybody's.

        12           THE WITNESS:  I don't know.

        13   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  Okay.  So faced with the problem

        14   that you had here -- because you have Exhibit 2 and you have

        15   Exhibit 1; correct?

        16            Now, you knew that Exhibit 2 presented a concern

        17   because this is an e-mail from a lady who was alleging

        18   copyright infringement; correct?  You have to deal with

        19   this; right?

        20   A        Yes.

        21   Q        That's part of your job?

        22   A        It is part of my job.

        23   Q        Okay, great.  And the way you deal with it is

        24   according to what is laid out in Exhibit 1; correct?

        25   A        Correct.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


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         1   Q        Okay.  Now, you wrote Exhibit 1; right?

         2   A        That is correct.

         3   Q        And when did you write it?

         4   A        Um, on the 11th of August.

         5   Q        So that was nine days after the shutdown of the

         6   American-Buddha.com modem; is that correct?

         7   A        That is correct.

         8   Q        Up until then, where had this AFN copyright

         9   infringement process policy been recorded?

        10   A        Um, we had had various conversations about it with

        11   our ISPs, and the policy had been used for the past number

        12   of years.

        13   Q        Where was it recorded?

        14   A        It was not recorded.

        15   Q        Okay.  So it was recorded in your brain; correct?

        16   A        Correct.

        17   Q        So that's why you wrote it down on paper?

        18   A        (Witness nods head.)

        19   Q        Is that correct?

        20   A        That is correct.

        21   Q        Was it recorded in anyone else's brain, to your

        22   knowledge?

        23   A        Yes.

        24   Q        Whose?

        25   A        Jon Dowd at InfoStructure, and our ISP knew of it.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        22


         1   Q        So you confirmed that your understanding was the

         2   same as Jon Dowd's?

         3           MS. O'KASEY:  About what?  I object to the form of

         4   the question.

         5   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  How about we start over?

         6            When did you talk to Jon Dowd about the

         7   infringement policy?

         8   A        At an ISP meeting sometime in August.

         9   Q        And was that August 1st, August 2nd, or --

        10   A        I do not recall.

        11   Q        Do you have a record of a meeting?

        12   A        I'm sure that there is a record of when that

        13   meeting occurred.

        14   Q        And where would that record be?

        15   A        In our calendar.

        16   Q        Were there any documents exchanged at that time?

        17   A        This document was given to all the ISPs.

        18   Q        Okay.  So now we have determined that it was

        19   certainly after August 11; is that correct?

        20   A        Yes.

        21   Q        And so on what day prior to August 11th had you

        22   discussed the matter of the copyright infringement policy

        23   with any of the ISPs?

        24   A        We have discussed it at almost every ISP meeting

        25   since the inception of Ashland Fiber Network.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        23


         1   Q        But never recorded it?

         2   A        Correct.

         3   Q        Okay.  And when you forwarded Exhibit 1 to legal

         4   counsel -- let me find it -- oh, Counsel -- excuse me -- all

         5   right.

         6            According to Exhibit 5, why don't you just go ahead

         7   and read the first line of this e-mail that is from you to

         8   Kathleen Parker.

         9   A        "Received; I'll contact the ISP and our

        10            legal department to see what we can do for

        11            you."

        12   Q        So how did you contact the legal department?

        13   A        By telephone.

        14   Q        Whom did you call?

        15   A        I called the legal -- 2090 number.

        16   Q        Did you forward to the legal department the

        17   Kathleen Parker e-mail?

        18   A        I do not recall.

        19   Q        And did you attempt to ascertain whether you had,

        20   in preparation for this deposition?  Did you --

        21   A        No.

        22   Q        Were you asked to review a document request?

        23   A        Yes.

        24   Q        Okay.  And did you review it?

        25   A        Yes.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        24


         1   Q        And notwithstanding having reviewed the document

         2   request, you did not review your e-mails to determine

         3   whether you had forwarded to Kathleen Parker Exhibit -- this

         4   e-mail to the legal department?

         5            You are looking at counsel as if she might have an

         6   answer, but the question is to you, sir.

         7   A        It was my understanding that communications with

         8   counsel were not a function of the request.

         9   Q        So in other words, you wouldn't produce a document

        10   to the plaintiff in this case based on the advice of counsel

        11   which reflected that you had actually forwarded the Kathleen

        12   Parker Exhibit 2 e-mail to the legal department; is that

        13   correct?

        14   A        Correct.

        15   Q        Does such a document exist, however?  To produce it

        16   or not, does such a document exist?

        17   A        I don't recall.

        18   Q        You don't remember whether you forwarded it at all?

        19   A        I believe I suggested to you that I had called the

        20   legal department.

        21   Q        You told me you called the legal department.  We

        22   are still trying to find out whether you remember or whether

        23   your memory is so poor that you do not remember whether you

        24   forwarded the actual e-mail from Ms. Kathleen Parker to

        25   counsel?



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        25


         1            You will note that your counsel is not objecting to

         2   this line of questioning on the grounds of it being

         3   privileged; the reason being, that it's not.

         4            Whether you forwarded it is not a privileged matter

         5   and it's not necessary to, you know, do anything other than

         6   answer the question.

         7   A        I do not recall.

         8   Q        Did you have any conversations with legal counsel

         9   for the City of Ashland concerning this matter?

        10   A        Yes.

        11   Q        And when were those conversations?

        12   A        On the 2nd.

        13   Q        On the 2nd, not on the 1st?

        14   A        Correct.

        15   Q        And did you make any decisions about what to do

        16   based on those communications?

        17           MS. O'KASEY:  I object and instruct you not to

        18   answer.  It calls for attorney-client privileged

        19   information.

        20   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  I take it you are going to follow

        21   that instruction?

        22   A        Yes.

        23           MS. O'KASEY:  You need to answer audibly with a yes

        24   or a no.  He can't --

        25           THE WITNESS:  Yes.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        26


         1           MR. CARREON:  Especially Mr. Hardy, he has no idea

         2   what you are saying.

         3           THE WITNESS:  Okay.

         4   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  So did you call Ms. Parker back?

         5   A        Yes.

         6   Q        And what did you tell her?

         7   A        I told her that the site was still on.

         8   Q        Did you relay to her anything that the attorneys or

         9   the attorney had said to you?  Did you tell her anything?

        10   A        No.

        11   Q        Did you say, the lawyer said this or the lawyer

        12   said that?

        13   A        No.  I said that there were lawyers involved.

        14   Q        And what did you tell her about what you were going

        15   to do with response to her request?

        16   A        Nothing.

        17   Q        What did you tell her then?

        18            You called her back and you said, hello, Ms.

        19   Parker --

        20   A        -- there are lawyers involved.

        21   Q        And did she talk to the lawyer?

        22   A        I have no idea.

        23   Q        Did you give her a telephone number for a city

        24   lawyer?

        25   A        I do not recall.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        27


         1   Q        Did you give her an e-mail address for a city

         2   lawyer?

         3   A        I don't believe so.

         4   Q        Did you assure her that anything was going to be

         5   done?

         6   A        No.

         7   Q        When did you make that phone call?

         8   A        Somewhere around the 3rd or the 4th.

         9   Q        At that point, the modem had already been turned

        10   off and turned back on?

        11   A        Correct.

        12   Q        And had she called you again?

        13   A        I believe so.

        14   Q        How many times did you call Kathleen Parker?

        15   A        I think I called her one time.

        16   Q        And that would have been on the 3rd or the 4th?

        17   A        Correct.

        18   Q        Did you call anybody at InfoStructure?

        19   A        Yes.

        20   Q        Who did you talk to?

        21   A        I spoke to Jon Dowd.

        22   Q        And what did you tell Jon?

        23   A        I referred him to the e-mail.

        24   Q        And is there a document of -- where you forwarded

        25   it?



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        28


         1            Is that forward produced here among -- I've got

         2   three e-mails, and it looks like three would be the document

         3   that you sent to Jon Dowd.

         4   A        That is correct.

         5   Q        Okay.  So you did not forward, to InfoStructure,

         6   Kathleen Parker's e-mail?

         7   A        I did not.

         8   Q        And you said, I have received a copyright

         9   infringement claim against a business customer of yours.

        10   This was on August 2, at 6:54 in the morning?

        11   A        That's correct.

        12   Q        At that point, had you spoken with legal counsel

        13   for the city of Ashland?

        14   A        I do not believe I had.

        15   Q        Okay.  So when you were saying that you had

        16   received a copyright infringement claim, there was no legal

        17   input on whether it was a proper copyright infringement

        18   claim or anything?

        19   A        That's correct.

        20   Q        When you prepared this AFN copyright infringement

        21   process document identified as Exhibit 1, did you consult

        22   with attorneys in preparing it?

        23   A        No.

        24           MS. O'KASEY:  I object and instruct you not to

        25   answer.



                    *** Laura L. Smith, CSR, RPR   541.488.4677 ***


                                                                        29


         1   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  Do you know what the DMCA is?

         2   A        Yes.

         3   Q        What is it?

         4   A        It is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

         5   Q        And what does it proscribe with respect to ISPs and

         6   copyright infringement?

         7   A        I am not completely sure.

         8   Q        So you have already distributed this document to

         9   the ISPs, Exhibit 1?

        10   A        Yes.

        11   Q        They think that it's the rule from AFN with regard

        12   to how these matters are going to be handled?

        13           MS. O'KASEY:  I object to the form of the question.

        14           You can answer.

        15   Q        BY MR. CARREON:  You have communicated to them that

        16   this is how they shall handle matters?

        17   A        No.  This is how we shall handle matters.

        18   Q        And is it your understanding that the DMCA has the

        19   force of law in all 50 states and the city of Ashland?

        20   A        I don't know.

        21   Q        You do understand that that -- it's part of the

        22   copyright law of the United States; correct?

        23   A        Okay.

        24   Q        No, no, please don't agree with me.

        25           MS. O'KASEY:  No, he's just asking if you know.  If

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